Episode 100: Tarot Trends 2010
Discussion of trends and issues in today’s Tarot Community.
- Certification
- Legitimizing Tarot vs.Reading on the Fringe
- Individual Expression
- Spiritual Elitism
- Tarot Police
- Counseling
- Rephrasing Questions
- Insurance Fraud
- Copyrights & Trademarks
- Fraud
- World Tarot Day
- Intellectual Property
Surgeon Generals Warning for this episode is:
“Chock Full of Ranty Goodness! An opinion in every bite” – Thalassa
Donnaleigh
Radio podcast personality, professional tarot reader & psychic artist with a gentle reading style.
 |
 |
- Donnaleigh.net
- Beyond Worlds
- Our Educational Tarot Podcast: http://TarotTribe.com
- Fridays with Storm Cestavani at http://StormOnAir.com/
Ginny Hunt
 |
 |
Ginny Hunt is a Professional Tarot Reader from Maryland. Her interest in the spiritual and metaphysical has been a lifelong passion. She has been a practicing counselor, both professionally with adolescents and para-professionally as a volunteer with abused women. She offers professional reading services through 78 Notes to Self.
Storm Cestivani
 |
 |
Storm Cestavani is a Celebrity Psychic that has been reading professionally for nearly twenty-five years and has amassed great skill at the divinatory arts, such as Clairvoyance, Clairaudience, Empathy, Astrology, Dreams, Channeling, Numerology, Past Lives, Automatic Writing, and Tarot.
Storm gained international notoriety as the former radio host for syndicated talk show Psychic Friends Live. He appeared in five infomercials for the Psychic Friends Network, reading for star Dionne Warwick on the show, and has been seen on a number of television and radio shows like:
* Jenny Jones * Montel Williams * Rikki Lake * Latifa! *Cinemax * HBO * The Real World * Showtime * CNN * NBC News Style. * E! * Howard Stern * Extra! * Art Bell * Travel Channel * Blind Date* *Oprah*
Thalassa
|
 |
Thalassa is the producer of the San Francisco Bay Area Tarot Symposium – the oldest established, permanent floating Tarot Symposium in the world (actually, the longest continuously produced Tarot event) and founder of the Daughters of Divination (DOD). She has been living, working and playing with the Tarot for more than 40 years (she was an infant prodigy).
She is also active in the production of Pagan and Divination events across the country, and her writing has been published in a wide range of publications, including the Llewellyn Tarot Reader almanacs since their inception. She has been involved in standup comedy, choreography, and stage management, and currently teaches improvisation and physical characterization for performers of Renaissance and Victorian festivals.
Her other interests include historical recreation, needlework, and plotting global domination. Thalassa lives in San Francisco with her long-suffering husband, a herd of semi-feral dustbunnies, a sword collection, and more Tarot cards than is safe to assemble in one place. She is working on a book (on Tarot, of all things).
Music Credits
- Opening Music: The Oracle Speaks by William Wilde Zeitler from Elegy for Atlantis
- Closing Music: Transition Music: We Throw Parties, You throw Knives by Los Campesinos! from Music Alley
Play or Download the Episode
![[Valid RSS]](http://www.tarotconnection.net/valid-rss.png "Validate my RSS feed")
July 24th, 2010 at 3:08 am
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Celeste Haven and Paranormal Phenomena, Leisa ReFalo. Leisa ReFalo said: Episode 100: Tarot Trends 2010 http://tarotconnection.net/episode-100/ [...]
July 24th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Ladies & Gentlemen -
Before I start my little mini-rant, I want to thank each of you for being willing to go public with your opinions.
Re certification – I am a firm proponent of certification. I come from a medical background, where certification was required. As noted, to retain certification continuing education was required. Whatever makes anyone think that continuing education should not be part of Tarot certification? Whether it is a new technique, or a fresh way of looking at something, it hepls an individual to become a better reader – it expands their view of the Tarot, and what it is capable of doing and being.
Having said that – I do not feel that there is a certification organization out there that is what it really needs to be at this time. Also – I see certification as an individual decision, and not a requirement.
Segue into the ” Tarot Police” – I believe that Tarot organizations do have a place in setting standards. I see this more on the local/state/national levels, than setting standards for individual readers. IOW – as Tarot readers we do need to have some type of body that has a voice strong enough to have impact on legislation at local/state/national levels. I also feel that these body’s need to speak out on ongoing legal process’s (a good example of this would be Tarot that hits the news – such as leaving Tarot cards at murder scenes).
Rewording questions is another mine field. IMHO, any good reader recognizes when a question needs to be reworded. It may be that the Seeker (I abhore the term Querent) is not sure of the wording, or is not able to focus as well as t hey would like to. I may be that the question is too general, or that it is limiting (as in a yes/no situation). I work with my clients in situations like this, but I don’t turn it into whatever I want as a reader. First and foremost – the reading belongs to the Seeker.
Re e-mail and phone readings allowing the Seeker to “hide”. Yes and no. Some individuals find a comfort zone in not facing the reader. I have had clients tell me that, and I understood. As readers, we are seeing and talking about quite a depth of information – information that could be embarassing for our clients.
Re World Tarot Day (WTD) – I participated in previous years, under Den Elder, because it was a gentle, respectful celebration of all that Tarot is and can be. Unfortunately, this year (which was not under her auspices) the whole concept was an abomination. Several of my friends and I did free readings on Twitter, and that was our way of honoring basically the original concept of the day (not what it had become). In coming years I ahve made the decision to not become involved in it. I will honor the Tarot whenever and wherever I can, through my own conduct, and that will be my voice.
There probably is more that I wanted to say here, but it has flown my limited ability to retain!
LOL One more thing! I understand Storm’s concerns re Tarot as a counseling tool. My feeling is that Tarot sessions are in essence counseling sessions – counseling through the archetypes of the cards. Good people to reference on this are Art Rosengarten, Elinor Greenberg and Toni Gilbert. They have all done excellent work (and writing) along these lines.
Blessings,
Bonnie
July 24th, 2010 at 9:47 am
Hello Leisa
This was an important show because it brought a lot of concerns out in the open – a dialogue is always the key to understanding even if we do not agree on every issue. I did find myself nodding my head in agreement to a lot of different parts during the show and also getting some insights that perhaps I had not thought of.
I applaud the bravery of everyone who participated in this broadcast. Often when dicey things happen in the community, most of us turn a blind eye because it is “none of our business” or we are afraid of getting involved because of a perceived threat to our reputation. But when issues arise they need to be discussed – even if it makes us uncomfortable or gets us involved in choppy “political” waters. This is the only way to evolve as a community. Stick together, discuss, debate, challenge the bullies, think, contemplate and all in the most respectful, professional manner possible. I believe you accomplished that in this podcast.
I hope this paves the way for more discussion. I really enjoyed listening in.
Thank you,
Theresa
July 24th, 2010 at 11:23 am
Bonnie – With all respect, I must disagree with your assessment of certification. Certification in the medical and scientific fields is a must – Ginny points this out – because of constant changes in technology, techniques and best practices.
However, Tarot is NOT a science, it is an Art. Would you certify artists and designers? Of course not, it’s neither desirable nor even possible. The realms in which Tarot operates are not governed by the sort of hard metrics that govern what is required to remain current in a science based field. Tarot operates in the realm of intuition, symbology, imagery, in short – Art. The power of art to heal and illuminate is not necessarily improved by someone’s achieving a certificate.
The more thorny problem of certification again lies in hard metrics – since there are nearly as many ways of studying, approaching and reading the Tarot as there are practitioners, how does one certify? One can be certified in a specific system, but that does not necessarily carry weight overall. Can there realistically be an overarching Certification Board? I fail to see how this is possible, let alone desirable. We run the risk of setting up a sort of Tarot Vatican, and who serves – and is served – by such an entity?
You must also consider, and honour, that many people who study Tarot have no desire – or need – for certification study coursework to become competent practitioners.
Modern life is increasingly hemmed in by rules and requirements – and this tends to stifle creativity and innovation. The power of the Tarot is its tremendous fluidity and its ability to foster creativity and the expansion of consciousness. I fail to see where certification helps that process.
I will go so far to say that I think certification makes Tarot like anything else – a lesson to be learned, a piece of paper to be achieved, rather than a vibrant path to exploration and creation.
If certification works for you, then godspeed, but you do a disservice to the field by placing such an emphasis on it.
July 24th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Interesting podcast with much food for thought. As someone who is new to the online Tarot community I found some of the conversation difficult to follow. I never quite understood the history of World Tarot Day or what exactly went wrong this year. Can you expound further?
I don’t have an opinion on Tarot Certification, though I know many do. I’m not a professional reader and tend to use Tarot alone in my room for reflection. It is interesting to listen in and I find that the conversation reminds me a great deal of the II of Swords. I find that card to be a pendulum card… about trying to find the equilibrium point between two extremes. I wonder what an equilibrium point might look like with regard to Tarot Certification. Is there a middle ground?
July 24th, 2010 at 6:23 pm
Danya,
I think we are currently at the middle ground. If you wish to be certified you can be. If you do not wish to be certified there are no requirements that say that you must. We are already there, and that option and choice is what is lovely about Tarot.
I must agree with Thalassa about certification. There are many schools of Tarot thought, and many ways to learn Tarot. Those schools have their own degree and diploma programs. That I think is more descriptive of someone learning their craft than certification. I personally would prefer to see more focus on higher educational topics in tarot, while leaving whether or not one is reading it in a politically correct way or not.
Storm
July 24th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
It really doesn’t make sense to professionally certify artistic/oracular fields, but certificates of completion are still worthy achievements. There are some who offer certifications for studying a particular course, deck, etc. and those are wonderful as a badge of completion and competency of that particular course. In order for tarot certification to exist with any kind of legitimacy there would have to be a completely independent and non-profit organization that upholds a commonly accepted standard of skills and ethics necessary in order to practice reading tarot for others. This board could not also be the organization that offers the courses utilized to pass the certification tests. I still question the usefulness of such a board, but if certification is going to actually mean something, it would need to be set up in a way that excludes profiteering and self-interest.
July 25th, 2010 at 5:20 am
Thalassa -
I do not feel that I am doing a disservice to the Tarot community by standing up for what I believe – that Tarot certification is a viable path. I would not force it on anyone – it is a choice. And right now, it is not well defined.
There is a difference between certification within a given program – such as James Wanless offers, and the Tarot School offers – and general certification.
I am very tired of those that not only disagree about the need for certification (which is fine, that is their opinion), and those who want to tear it apart, and denigrate those of us who have earned the various certification levels, and choose to use them professionally.
There is a reason that one of my birth cards is that of the Hermit.
Blessings,
Bonnie
July 25th, 2010 at 6:24 am
The reason certification came up as an issue was, there is a for profit organization that looks on the surface like many non-profit organizations. It was charging money for classes and selling certification which could be achieved by taking these classes. This group co-opted the titles from more reputable certification groups. The people in this group elevated themselves to the highest level (grandmaster). In the process of getting a podcast together this organization had internal drama, attrition and gave up their certification program.
July 25th, 2010 at 7:15 pm
Leisa, firstly, happy 100th episode! And what a great one to have.
I really enjoyed listening to all of the articulate guests in this discussion, and being from another community which has had similar issues (astrology), it gave me much food for thought as well.
There were two points that made the biggest impression on me, and that I can apply to my own experience:
1) Appointing an external power/authority to “police” bad behavior would be a solution that would likely create more problems than it would solve. Tarot and astrology are both fields, as it was pointed out, which have survived outside the mainstream paradigm, and that is why people seek these modalities. Setting up an authoritarian structure feeds into the same hierarchical mindset that is at the root of many of society’s problems. A more powerful solution would be to:
2) Police from within, with the power of community. What would be required in order for that to work is for people to speak up, and be willing to say, as Leisa puts it, when “something doesn’t smell right.”
Thank you for taking the time to put this together. A very thought-provoking episode.
Dena
July 26th, 2010 at 9:13 am
Storm, you seem to have a very “live and let live” approach to certification. I would agree that that is the equilibrium point but I’m not sure that everyone involved in the debate shares your “live and let live” approach.
My question is more directed towards those who feel a strong “Absolutely NOT” or “Absolutely YES” regarding the issue. Are you listening openly to the “opposing viewpoint”? Is there anything in that opposing viewpoint that you can find agreement with? What if you took the best of what certification hopes to accomplish and melded it with the best of what those wary of certification hope to avoid? What might that look like?
I’m not a reader, but if I were to consider pursuing that path I would want to know about ethical and legal standards, possible training opportunities, and perhaps suggested milestones to accomplish before beginning. How do I know that I know enough to be an effective reader? How do I establish an ethical practice? What legal considerations should I bear in mind? What styles of reading are open to me and how do I choose one that is right for me? How do I explain to clients my level of education and continuing education?
Maybe some of these questions belong more in the realm of associations than certification bodies… to provide guidance on professional issues and standards… to put forth mission statements, codes of ethics and such.
I think certification is designed to answer the last question posed… “How do I explain to clients my level of education and continuing education in my field?” A certification body might develop standards about what various levels of Tarot instruction are designed to accomplish and provide accreditation to those schools that meet those standards. But without a body that everyone can agree upon, maybe the best way is to explain why and how you pursue education to your clients in whatever way you see fit to do so. If you have completed certain courses, you can share that along with why you feel the course was valuable.
If certification is tied to education, I don’t see a problem with it as long as the certifying bodies are in no way associated with the educational programs. Colleges and Universities don’t have the ability to accredit themselves… yet the accrediting bodies are also subject to scrutiny.
August 16th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
A wonderful program. This was the first Tarot Connection podcast I’ve listened to – and will certainly not be the last. As someone who is a long-time reader but only newly in the tarot community, I found the program very informative.
Re: Certification
Most people who believe in certification believe that it increases the quality of the people who are certified and helps protect people using the professional service. In reality, this rarely happens. Instead, certification creates a neo-medieval guild system which serves to create a two-level 5 of coins type caste system – those who have vs. those who don’t. Ultimately it’s about control. All kinds of unforeseen side effects result.
The only people who benefit from licensing, certification, testing and the like are the people who take the fees.
I’m all for education, apprenticeship and mentoring for new readers. But ultimately being a GTMBC is not going to impress your client. She just wants to know if you can help her and give her a connection to something real.
August 27th, 2010 at 10:38 am
Hi everyone, Guess I will weigh in on this one.
I agree that Tarot reading/counseling is an art…a wonderful one. I have an art education. When I first started school, I wasn’t sure what the education would do to my talents. It turned out to enhance them and broaden my perspective. Currently, I can see the difference between artists who took the time to refine their skills (without loss to their individuality) and produce a finer “product.”
The same can be said of certification for anything. If you want to refine your skills and broaden your perspective then certification is for you. Certification is not jail, it tells the prospective client that you are a serious student (which is ongoing) of the mysteries. You can still be yourself without certification. It is a matter of perspective on which you want to pursue….your own course with just you at the helm, or step into a student role and explore other tarotists’ perspectives. You end up getting more magician’s tools.
For instance, When I sought out a mentor in Christine Payne Towler, I was already proficient at my own interactive version of Tarot counseling and other modalities. I spent three years as her student and was rewarded with many more ideas, perspectives and history. Not only that but the time was incredibly fun.
Ultimately, we must all chose our own path….chose well…time flies. Toni
August 27th, 2010 at 1:19 pm
Firstly, it is my own opinion is that Tarot cannot be used as a divination tool until it has been studied in its proper Wisdom mode – in which the universal laws and principles that Tarot symbolizes are personally learnt and understood. Once understood, any person using his knowledge of each Tarot Key can conduct his/her life in a perfect manner and assist others in the same manner without the need to consult the cards as a divination tool.
Assuming that this certification ‘rant’ addresses the Tarot in it’s secondary mode as a divination tool, in which case the only curriculum that can be applied to Tarot is one that requires knowledge of the cursory card meanings. Then comes the issue of the ‘correct’ meanings of the cards, which will be influenced by the person who has laid out the curriculum. Whilst there are no correct meanings, there are no incorrect meanings either so long as the reader understands the root meaning of each card.
Certification certifies that a person has learnt a specific curriculum. If that curriculum is based on knowing the 78 cursory meanings and the student acquired and A he can prove that he has achieved an A grade in that curriculum. This should assure any person that the reader has acquired a specific standard of understanding in a specific curriculum.
In terms of achieving a unified international curriculum – a learning standard, there is already a governing body! And this governing body states that each persons understanding is different and each person writes his/her own laws as he progresses through life and therefore his learning journey is a personal one. There cannot be an industry standard of Tarot but there can be a set of GUIDELINES to enable the student to write his own set of laws accordingly.
As far as certification and governing bodies go in terms of Tarot in it’s original ‘Wisdom’ mode, the Builders of the Adytum, have supplied a perfectly adequate and inexpensive set of guidelines that will teach the student the laws of life, and if one understands the laws of life, he may become a teacher to those who seek them without the need to shuffle and draw the cards. To only learn to divine using cursory Tarot meanings is like pretending that a chess board is a ludo board. Using ‘stand-alone’ Tarot Knowledge and Wisdom AND as a divinity tool will enable the reader to impart wisdom based on the fundmental laws of life! The ultimate reader is wise and Wisdom comes from knowing the universal rules to which we must obey.
Hannah